Paula Sabbagha: Good morning and welcome to the chat TCG podcast. I am Paula Sabbagha, a financial advisor on the TCG and associates team at UBS Financial Services. We are located in Columbia, South Carolina and we can be reached at (803) 873-9828. Our guest today on the podcast is Kim Raber, lawyer at Kim, a Raber, P.A.. She is not affiliated with UBS Financial Services, Inc. and her views are her own. Paula Sabbagha: Good morning Kim. We're glad to have you on the podcast today. Kim Raber: Hi Paula. Thank you so much for having me. Paula Sabbagha: Yeah. You and I have known each other a long time and gotten to know each other through the chamber and the different clients we've shared. It's been good getting to know you, and I'm so happy to have you today. Kim Raber: Thank you. I love that we had the same mindset in helping our clients. Paula Sabbagha: Absolutely. So, Kim, thinking about a state law, it can be very personal and emotional. So what first drew you into this specific area of law? Kim Raber: I think it's that I like putting pieces of a puzzle together and seeing the finished product, but also just making sure clients and their families are protected. There's nothing worse than seeing someone who hasn't planned for that and see the ramifications, either to the person themselves while they're still alive, but they can't handle their own affairs or upon their death, seeing families fight. Paula Sabbagha: Yeah. That's heartbreaking. And we see that too. Definitely ways to avoid it. So I agree with you. It's very rewarding. What is a defining moment? If you think back, or an early case in your career that made you realize that this is the specific work that you're meant to do.
Kim Raber: The one that probably hit me the hardest was parents and a 16 year old child traveling down the road, having a horrible car crash. Both parents died. They had not done any estate planning. They were young, you know, in their 30s and hadn't done any planning. And so at that point, what happened was this child had to go live with family. Kim Raber: Conservator had to be appointed for her through the probate court, which is a timely and expensive process. The conservator that's appointed may not be who her parents would have chosen to serve, but the bad part about the conservatorship is it ends at age 18. And so at 18, this child was handed several million dollars, and the court had worked with her prior to that time. Kim Raber: On introducing her to different financial advisors and planners, trying to teach her that this was going to be paid to her. At age eight, age 18, she needed to keep it invested wisely, work with a professional, and tried to introduce her to different ones that she might connect with one and do that. So that check was handed to her at age 18. Kim Raber: She came back in a year later to the probate court. They thought she was just coming back to visit because they had all gotten very attached to her and close to her, and she came in and said, I need more money. And the judges response was, we explained that to you. There is no more money. And what was even worse is she had not one asset, so she had blown through all that money.
Kim Raber: In a year's time. She didn't have a house, she didn't have a business. She didn't even have a car titled in her name. She didn't have an investment account. I mean, there was not an asset that she could share. Paula Sabbagha: That's devastating. Yeah. So many wrong decisions that hopefully could have been prevented with a little more planning. Kim Raber: Exactly. Paula Sabbagha: If you look back at your younger self, did you imagine becoming an estate attorney or did your path take an unexpected turn? Kim Raber: I never imagined becoming an estate attorney. Yeah. Majored in political science. Minored in criminal justice. Worked for a federal prison during college in North Carolina. When I moved here for law school, I was applying for my first law clerk position, and I had I was between two offers. One was CCR, which was the state prison here in Columbia at that time. Kim Raber: And I would have been doing similar work that I had done at the federal prison. And the other offer was from a small civil practice for much less money. And I actually chose the small civil practice for much less money, because I thought I needed to challenge myself and expose myself to different areas. And they did much more of this law state planning. Kim Raber: And that's when I found out that I absolutely love business law. I love a state law, and I never would have imagined that that would have been the areas that I love and and practicing in. Paula Sabbagha: Wow. So you didn't miss the prison law? Kim Raber: I did not, I and I tell everybody today that if you get in trouble in that area, don't call me. I would not know how to help you. Right? Paula Sabbagha: Oh. That's funny. Well, you're certainly good at what you do. From what I've seen. So. Kim Raber: Thank you. Paula Sabbagha: You landed in the right spot. Thank you. So many people think of Wells and Trust as just legal paperwork. Can you share a story that shows the more human side of a state planning?
Kim Raber: There are so many. I think that one that comes to mind is, to me, a lot of times it's blended families and we have so many blended families and what happens and not through really fault is just not thinking to the next step. So what happens is let's say wife was married before and had two children. Husband was married before and had two children. Kim Raber: And then they found each other and got married. And then they maybe had a child together. They may have set up their estate planning. Usually they they, you know, leave everything to one another. So husband and wife say it goes to my wife first and wife says it goes to my husband first. And that sounds great in theory. Kim Raber: But then wife passes away. Husband changes his estate planning documents, maybe remarries, maybe then does a last will and testament, or a trust that leaves everything to a new wife and previous wife's children are completely left out of that inheritance. Paula Sabbagha: Yeah, yeah, that can be devastating. Kim Raber: Yes. Paula Sabbagha: Yeah. Have you ever had a client? Kind of along those lines that just thought estate planning was only for wealthy and then left with a completely different perspective? Kim Raber: Absolutely. I think a lot of people have that concept that I don't really have a lot of assets. So why should I do all this pre-planning? But it's important to know that every asset that is titled so that homes land any type of real estate, condo accounts, investment accounts, even checking savings accounts, cars, boats, motors. I mean, everything that is titled upon death, it locks down and you cannot transfer ownership of that asset unless you have an estate plan, unless you either have a last will and testament that will be probated, or you have a living trust that says what happens to those assets upon death.
Kim Raber: Otherwise, no one in your family and no one else will have a legal authority to transfer that asset. And most everybody has a car and a house and a bank account, right? Paula Sabbagha: Right. So it's really not just for the wealthy. I mean, it's really for everybody that owns a titled property. Kim Raber: It is. Paula Sabbagha: Can you tell us about a time when estate planning saved a family from conflict or heartache down the road? Kind of like the example you mentioned about, you know, stepkids or kids from a previous marriage? Kim Raber: Yes. There have been many times when the success stories are good. I think we remember the the horror stories because they stick with us. But in those instances, the parents have planned accordingly. We have done some situations recently where it was that blended family situation, and what they chose to do is that for what they had worked for together up until that point in their marriage, they it became they put it into a trust. Kim Raber: And upon the death of one spouse, it became irrevocable to where it couldn't be changed. So then it still did go to those children from a previous marriage, okay. And it was still protecting the other spouse during their life, but upon their death, it still could be divided. And then their thought was, if we remarry, if one of us dies and we remarry, whatever we bill with that next person, that can be in a separate estate plan. Kim Raber: But we've protected children from our previous marriages. Paula Sabbagha: I like that. Yeah, it's kind of like this bucket of money goes with this part of my life.
Kim Raber: That's exactly right. That's a great way of putting it right. Paula Sabbagha: And that's relevant for what we do, too. Because we're on the other end of seeing those assets are combining them or not combining them at those moments. What's one of the most challenging estate cases you've handled, and what did it teach you about people and families? Kim Raber: I think that it would be a situation where it was, again, a husband and a wife. They were married later in life and he had children from then. These are grown adult children from a previous marriage. She did not have any children from a previous marriage, but this husband and wife, they were married for 26 years. He passed and he did not have any estate planning in place. Kim Raber: And so what happened in that? Your control by statute, by the intestacy laws, if you don't have a last will and testament or trust that handles your affairs upon your death. He did not. So what happened is half went to his current spouse, and half of his estate got divided between those two other children. That doesn't sound terrible in theory, but there was only one house, and that had been this lady's home for 26 years. Kim Raber: And now when we say half and half, the title is done that way. So the deed gets put in half the wife's name and half step children's name. And they didn't have a great relationship to begin with, and they had a worse relationship after that. She couldn't afford to buy them out. And so they ended up having to sell the house and divide the proceeds, the half and the half, and she had to find another.
Kim Raber: And to find another place to live at her age. And after that was her home for 26 years. Paula Sabbagha: That is devastating. Kim Raber: That hurts. Paula Sabbagha: Wow. And could be preventable. Kim Raber: Absolutely. Paula Sabbagha: Planning ahead of that. Gosh, in your work, I'm sure you see the best and the worst in families. Can you share a story where a family surprised you in a positive way? Kim Raber: Absolutely. I think the one that I remember the most is it was a situation where there was a lot of beneficiaries of the estate. Actually, if you can believe it, the fraction that we were using at one point was one over 262. Oh my gosh. And there were that many pain. And that was through an estate plan. But oh, there were a lot of heirs and a lot of beneficiaries. Kim Raber: I thought, this is going to be the hardest ever. And do you know that every one of those people agreed, and it was distant family. It was family all over the United States. But every time we sent them a form to sign up for the estate to progress, they all signed it and sent it back. So what a family. Kim Raber: I mean, that's a testament to, Paula Sabbagha: I wonder, in that case, did those beneficiaries have a heads up and they knew what was going to come after that death? Kim Raber: Maybe, I don't know, because the family was so spread out, but they were just such good people that they didn't use it as an opportunity to fight. They just. But it amazed me because usually with that many people involved, you're going to run into, even if it's someone you know. And for everybody. But there was like a matriarch of the family, and I think she would call everybody.
Kim Raber: She was in New York and she would call the family and kind of gather the troops and tell them, this papers come, coming from Kim, and sign it and send it back. And they. Paula Sabbagha: Would. Yeah, I think you're right there having someone in charge of getting the stuff signed. That's important. So it doesn't fall through the cracks or. Right yet I think that's. Kim Raber: Again and somebody that the family trust and respects goes a long way. Paula Sabbagha: Right. Or that they're afraid of. Kim Raber: Maybe that's true, right? Paula Sabbagha: Well, speaking of matriarch, women often end up managing estates after the loss of a parent or a spouse. Can you share an experience that highlights the importance of preparing women for that role? Kim Raber: I see this a lot, and I know you do too. That especially with an older generation that those women may not have handled the money. They may never have spoken to the financial advisor before. They are terrified. They've lost their spouse and they are terrified. Some of them I've met can't even balance a checkbook. You know, they just have not played that role before. Kim Raber: They played many more important roles, but they have just not been in that role. And that's a scary process because all of a sudden they're left with these assets and they've never had to manage them. Sometimes they don't even know where the accounts are. Yeah. But I think in those cases, what we've done is introduce them to a team because I think they need a team. Kim Raber: I think they need a financial advisor like you. I think they need an attorney. I think they need a CPA. I think they need probably to be introduced to, you know, just maybe even a bookkeeper at this point or something that the financial planner can help. But just to teach them how to look at everything, just how to get organized, and what's in their best interest and really be more educational in that role.
Paula Sabbagha: Yeah. And you and I agree on that. I know we've talked many times. Kim Raber: Yes. Paula Sabbagha: I've even seen a widow where like, the electricity got cut off because it was only in the deceased husband's name and she didn't even know that she was on, on it or where to go to get her name on it. So things as small as utilities, you don't think that that actually needs to be written down or a part of your plan or make it joint right? Paula Sabbagha: So lots of things that can be done ahead of time with that education. Kim Raber: And the utility company sometimes won't even talk to the spouse if they are not on the account. So until the estate gets open, they won't even speak to them to turn it back on, right? Paula Sabbagha: Right. And something so basic as power, you know, you don't realize that that can be kind of dragged into that estate issue. Yeah. Right. So you've worked with multiple generations. Can you tell us about a family where planning helped create a meaningful legacy across generations? Kim Raber: We have one that we have done recently that was so interesting. This family had mountain property, lots and lots of land in the mountains. And it did come from it was generational property and they were very sentimentally attached to this property and wanted to stay in the family as long as possible. That's hard to deal with sometimes because you've also if you if you leave it to multiple children, these these people had eight children. Kim Raber: And so it was like, we don't want to leave it, to all eight children all at one time because it ends up being what we call heir property. And it just continues to get into that one. Over 262 fractional interest, which we try to avoid. But what they decide to do is to place that property into a trust.
Kim Raber: And they had. And then you've got to fund that trust, because if you're putting that property in the trust, taxes have to be paid, insurance has to be paid. There was a cabin on the property that, of course had electricity and all those things that needed upkeep, maintenance. But they also had a beach house that they rented out during peak season. Kim Raber: So they put the beach house into the trust as well. And the income from the beach house funded the mountain property, and then they were able to set it up for their children to, to use it like a timeshare. It's almost like they they were allowed to pick with. Paula Sabbagha: Right. Kim Raber: And they set forth a third party trustee so no one child would be in charge and, and get in a fight over what they had and how it was to be maintained. So it was a really interesting way to preserve that property and then that legacy for their children. Paula Sabbagha: That's very creative. Yeah, I, I love that estate planning often overlaps with community values. Can you share story of how someone's plan reflected their desire to give back to the community? Kim Raber: Absolutely. I think it is one that you and I have talked about before. I had a client pass away and he just didn't have any family. His parents had passed. He had never married. He didn't have children, but he was very involved in the community, both where he lived before moving to South Carolina and then in South Carolina.
Kim Raber: And he divided his estate among 16 different charities, all. So that was a wonderful. And they were all it was a college up north where his mom had taught. It was a college here in South Carolina that they had involvement with. It was a church. It was a a family graveyard in Boston. It was I mean, it was just all different charities. Kim Raber: And the charities have just been so grateful and so wonderful to work with and really appreciate that. And, I got a letter, I can just say one of them was Clemson, and I just got a letter in Clemson named a scholarship in his mother's name. Oh. That's wonderful. So it's just nice. And they were nice enough to send that letter because they didn't have to do that. Kim Raber: That was not specified. But they wanted you know, everyone to know what they had done. Paula Sabbagha: And that's neat to see the the result of all that planning, you know, that it went for such a great scholarship, right? I love that. What's one personal experience from your own life that influences the way you approach clients? Estate planning? Kim Raber: I think that they're probably maybe not limited to one, maybe couple. First of all, my father social life insurance for years and years. And so through that, I learned the importance of preparing and making sure your family's protected. Because I heard that all the time. Right. And then the other part would be also on his side of the family. Kim Raber: There were seven children ranging in age from 19 to 1. Oh, where was the twins? In there. And so his mom was really good. His dad passed away before his mom and his mom was really good and did some good estate planning, because those seven children love each other, but they don't always like each other. And so I think that was something I saw firsthand the importance of having rules.
Paula Sabbagha: Right? Right. Rules that can't be changed after that person passes. That's right. Right. That's neat. That's in my experience, too. My mom and dad kind of what my childhood shaped my view on what I do now. So I think that's a neat thing. Your childhood really does impact, you know, what you end up doing and how you do it. Kim Raber: Paula Sabbagha: Yeah. Have you ever had a client story that made you stop and rethink your own planning or advice? Kim Raber: I think it is. I, I think where it comes to me is, is just trying to get people to think, beyond one, one level or one tier, like coming in and saying, I want to leave everything to Susan or wonder if Susan's gone. And then you get, oh my goodness, I didn't think about that. You know, and they'll say, but it's not likely that would happen. Kim Raber: And we have to go through the scenario. I have to I say I have to kill off people in my estate planning room all the time, because I have to take them through the scenario to say, wonder if the big boss came and and hit the car, and you and your daughter and your grandchildren were all in the car, and that's not far fetched, right? Kim Raber: And then they say, oh my goodness, it's not. We do that all the time. We went to the zoo yesterday. And so I think it's just getting them to think beyond the next step and to have their estate planning last. Because if you don't think beyond, I'll see powers of attorney that list one person and again I.
Paula Sabbagha: We need three listening to you. Kim Raber: Yeah I always recommend at least three. You can have ten, but at least three. But if that person can't do it, either they die before you or they're sick or they're incapacitated or they're just too busy. Yeah. Then it really renders your document ineffective. Paula Sabbagha: Right, right. Yeah. We go through that too, with having, you know, a primary beneficiary. And then we always encourage, you know, well, what if you're together and pass, you know, in the car with that person who's the next layer kind of getting them think beyond. Kim Raber: Yes. Paula Sabbagha: So important because you just turn on the news. And unfortunately there's so many tragedies. I hate things that can happen. So we gotta be prepared. If you could debunk one myth about estate planning, what's a story that proves that it's wrong? Kim Raber: I think the thought that young people are invincible and that they don't need to do estate planning. I think that's the I mean, we all want to think that we're going to die at age 100 or above, right? We think we have to be elderly. And I think I hear that a lot. People say, oh, I'm too young to do a site planning. Kim Raber: I'll do that when I'm older. And, you know, we're not given a certain number of days on this earth or a deadline on our death. And what I saw a change in is Covid. That was one time when young people started pouring into the office to do estate planning because they were seeing friends, neighbors, family pass away at all different ages. Kim Raber: And I think it finally hit the younger generation that we may not be as invincible as we think we are, and we may need to go ahead and put this in place. Yeah.
Paula Sabbagha: Absolutely. And I usually tell people, if you can tell me your expiration date, I can tell you exactly how much money you can spend a month. I love it like nobody knows. So we've got a plan for, you know, the best case scenario, our best educated guess. Yes. Yeah, I think that's where you and I both are educating people. Paula Sabbagha: So we don't know what's going to happen. But there are things we can do to plan for a wide variety of things that could happen. Kim Raber: That's all right. Paula Sabbagha: Yeah. So how do you see estate planning changing in the future and what excites you about it? Kim Raber: I think that probably one of the more exciting things is that we were so in limbo. On what the amount that you can pass estate tax free would be, because it was about to run out at the end of this year. And so we were kind of in limbo on what. And it's been relatively high for a number of years. Kim Raber: And so it's my understanding, although I have not read all thousand pages of the bill, it's my understanding in there somewhere is that it is 15 million per person, and supposedly it is permanent. So that's an interesting concept. I'm not sure how permanent everything can be, but at least that is a limit to where people can pass, and most families will be able to pass what they have and not pay estate taxes and not have to do a lot of estate tax planning, because that is not always, you know, if the government gives you something, they take away something.
Kim Raber: And so they give you the ability to do this estate tax planning. But in in turn, you lose some control over those assets with those type of trust. And so that was always hard for people. And so most people are not going to have to do that. Because it is 15 million per person. So it's 30 million for a couple basically. Kim Raber: And so, you know, that won't affect most people. So they'll be protected from that tax, which is wonderful because I think it's like 50 or 55% tax. It's hefty. And the other thing that is on a lesser scale, but so exciting to me, is that our Department of Motor Vehicles will now allow you to name a beneficiary on a car. Paula Sabbagha: So I'm very excited about that one. Yes. So that's effective. Kim Raber: Yes. Yes. The forms are available online. Paula Sabbagha: I'm going to go print them to sign up for that. Yeah. That's one of those things. Like when you see someone that has a great estate plan and everything's buttoned up. But this car. Yeah. What do I do with this car that was in grandma's name? So I think that's going to make things so much easier for an asset that's really a depreciating asset. Paula Sabbagha: It's not a big asset, but it needs to be accounted for. Kim Raber: Because again, you can't pass title unless it's done. We have provided estates for one car. We've had people that prepared these intricate living trust and then went to buy a new car, and they forgot to buy it in the name of the trust. So then they pass away and there's this one car that's not in the trust. And so you have to probate the estate for that one car.
Kim Raber: So I just think that's going to be a nice because your other option before was to title it or your name or someone else's name, and upon the death of the first to die, went to the other person. But sometimes people didn't want to make somebody else the joint owner, right? Because it made them the joint owner of it. Paula Sabbagha: Right. And then it's harder to sell. You've both got to be in on that decision to finance a car that. Kim Raber: Way and liability. Paula Sabbagha: Yeah. Kim Raber: Regs you know all of that. So it just produces a great new option that you can name that beneficiary. And all you have to do is present the death certificate to the Department of Motor Vehicles. And then title transfer. Paula Sabbagha: So I'm going to print four of those right away. Kim Raber: Right. Paula Sabbagha: That's right. So if you could pass along one story or lesson to the next generation about planning ahead, what would it be. Kim Raber: To do it? I think just to, you know, make that time I tell clients all the time, I know this is not fine. I know this is the last thing you want to do, but I will say that that what brings joy to me is at the end of the process. These words bring me joy. You made me understand this. Kim Raber: I thought it was going to be so complicated, but it's not complicated. And you brought me peace of mind. So those are the kindest words I can hear, because I think they really feel that when they leave, it's like, not something you want to do. And what's funny, Paula, is that women tend to do it more so than men.
Kim Raber: And I would think men would be the estate planners. Yeah, but women are bringing husbands and kicking and screaming and but everybody will say at the end, I am so glad this is done because I feel so much better. Like I just have that peace of mind now. Paula Sabbagha: Right? Kim Raber: Right. Paula Sabbagha: It's kind of like going to the doctor. It's usually the women dragging them in. Kim Raber: Yes. Paula Sabbagha: So all good. So we learn just do it right. Just do the estate plan. And I think talking to people about it, like if you've named someone in your plan, just making sure they, they know that they've been named and you know, what their duty could be. Kim Raber: And also, yes, and also letting them know where the documents are, because we advise them all the time they need to be in a fire safe place. So that's either a safe deposit box or a fire safe at home, but it doesn't do any good to have them if the person that you've named can't get to. Paula Sabbagha: Them, that's true. Kim Raber: So. So it's just a great idea either. Go ahead, name them on that safe deposit box because those get locked down upon death. Right? So you want them to be on the air so they'll have access purposes safe at home. Make sure they have the key or the combination. Paula Sabbagha: Right. Great advice. Absolutely. What? Candice was great. And I appreciate you taking time to share some of your expertise with us. And, we look forward to hearing from you again. Kim Raber: Thank you so much for the opportunity. Paula Sabbagha: Thank you.
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