Neal Gittleman: We all sensed that the audience made a big difference to us, but playing in an empty room for cameras and microphones, even if there's like a hundred people in the audience, it suddenly has a different-
Shaun Nicholson: Yes.
Neal Gittleman: ... dynamic to it-
Shaun Nicholson: Yes.
Neal Gittleman: ... so I think we all learned then how that collective experience of performers and an audience together sharing art together in a live way, just how important that is.
Announcer Welcome, and thank you for listening to the Next Gen podcast, a conversational series with members from InterGen Wealth Partners at UBS, with an understanding of the family dynamics that can accompany multigenerational wealth. We are experienced in working with you and your family to develop a strategic plan to guide your decisions. Our approach helps provide education across generations to help define and support your long-term vision for your wealth.
Shaun Nicholson: Welcome to the Next Gen Podcast. I'm your host, Shaun Nicholson, Financial Advisor with InterGen Wealth Partners here at UBS Financial Services. Our office is located in Dayton, Ohio, and you can reach us at intergen@ubs.com. Today, I have the distinct honor of speaking with a true legend in the Dayton Arts community, Neal Gittleman, the esteemed retired conductor of the Dayton Philharmonic Orchestra. For nearly three decades, Neal has been a visionary leader shaping the sound and spirit of the Philharmonic, while championing music, education, community engagement, and artistic innovation.
We'll explore Neal's journey from his early musical roots to his transformative work in Dayton, and hear his reflections on leadership, legacy, and the future of the Dayton Philharmonic. Neal, thank you so much for joining us. Let's start at the beginning. What first drew you to music? Was there a particular moment or performance or even person that sparked your passion?
Neal Gittleman: Well, Shaun, first of all, it's great to be talking with you. If we're going all the way back to the beginning, it really starts with my parents. My mother was a public school music teacher, so there was lots of music in the house. My father, he played the radio and the phonograph, but there was music everywhere, and so it was just part of what my life was. Listening to it, I took piano lessons from my mother, which was, well, let's just say it had its good points and its-
Shaun Nicholson: I'm sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... its bad points-
Shaun Nicholson: Yeah.
Neal Gittleman: ... but I think probably there was a person who made me notice that there was this thing called an orchestra, and that, like many people of my generation, was Leonard Bernstein. We lived in New York, but I don't think I saw and I didn't see any live Bernstein concerts when I was a kid living in Brooklyn, but I saw all his Young People's Concerts on TV. That was my introduction to orchestral music, and honestly, I thought all concerts were like that. They all had Leonard Bernstein, he talked to people, he explained what was going on, and then they played the music and great.
Shaun Nicholson: Oh, that's great.
Neal Gittleman: I learned later that wasn't the case.
Shaun Nicholson: Right, right. Well, you've studied at some of the most prestigious institutions and worked with incredible mentors. Can you tell us about a teacher and experience that had lasting impact on your approach to conducting?
Neal Gittleman: Well, there are two teachers who, I mean, I saw these questions in advance, so I was thinking about them. As would most people, I had a long line of teachers in all kinds of fields who had great influence on me, teachers in high school, a great history teacher, a great English teacher, but in music, the people who influenced me the most as a musician were, I would say, three teachers. One was the great French teacher, Nadia Boulanger, who I was lucky enough to study with over a four-year period after college. The second would be her assistant, Annette Dieudonné, who was my solfege teacher, ear training, all that kind of stuff. She had the best name of anyone. Dieudonné in French means given of God, and she was the most, if anyone in the world was given of God, it was Mademoiselle Dieudonné.
Shaun Nicholson: Okay.
Neal Gittleman: Mademoiselle Boulanger, Mademoiselle Dieudonné, and then my next teacher was my main conducting teacher, Charles Bruck, who I studied with over a six-year period at the Pierre Monteux School during the summer, and for years at the Hart School of Music. The three of those people were the people who sort of made me the musician that I am today.
Shaun Nicholson: Mm-hmm. That's cool. Conducting's such a unique path. What was it about the role of the conductor that appealed to you early on? Was there a moment when you knew this was your calling?
Neal Gittleman: Well, it wasn't exactly Leonard Bernstein. I mean, I was a kid who would wave my arms in the air along with Lenny, but I would say I started to notice conducting when I was a freshman at college playing in the Yale Symphony, and would look up from my position in the violin section and watch the conductor, a man named John Mauceri, who was about, at that time, maybe 10 years older than me, 15 at most. He was having the time of his life, and I thought that was the first time, because up until that point, I thought I knew music was what I wanted to go into, but I thought it might be composition, it might be playing, it might be teaching.
When I saw John, I thought, "That looks cool," because it's a way of being in the world of the orchestra without having to hear yourself play. As I fell in love with the orchestra as a freshman at Yale, I fell out of love with my violin playing. I talked to John after rehearsal one night. I said, "You know, if I was interested in conducting, what should I do? He sort of helped me get started.
Shaun Nicholson: Nice, nice. Well, you have been with the Philharmonic since 1995. What brought you to Dayton? What were your first impressions of the orchestra in the community?
Neal Gittleman: Well, 30 years ago was a very long time. I was much younger, I had more hair. What brought me to the community was the job. I was very interested in getting my own orchestra. It seemed at the time when I came as one of a whole string of candidates for the position after Isaiah Jackson was leaving the orchestra, I had a sense that this was an orchestra that had a lot of potential for growth. The orchestra and I could sort of grow together, and they seemed like they were a good orchestra that had the potential to become a very good orchestra, and had a work ethic that sort of matched mine, which was sort of, roll up your sleeves, get to work, no BS, let's make music together. We from the very beginning had a kind of simpatico feeling, and it worked for three decades, so that's pretty good.
Shaun Nicholson: It did. Over the years, you've seen the Philharmonic grow and evolve. What are some of the most significant changes you've witnessed musically, organizationally, or culturally?
Neal Gittleman: Well, the biggest change of all was the building of the Schuster Center. When I came to Dayton, the orchestra was playing in Memorial Hall, which had been its home for a very long time. It was good in the sense that you could put people in it and the orchestra could be on stage. It was not designed ever as a concert hall. It was designed sort of as an assembly hall, and people diss Memorial. "Wow, it was built for wrestling matches." Well, yes, they had wrestling matches and boxing matches in it, but that's not... it was built to be a community auditorium and meet all kinds of different needs. The one need that it really couldn't fulfill from a structural standpoint was to be a good concert hall.
Shaun Nicholson: Right.
Neal Gittleman: When we got the Schuster Center, and that was really just a giant shot in the arm for the orchestra, I mean, for the whole arts community-
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... in Dayton, but when we were doing the fundraising effort for the hall, I was part of the team that would meet with donors. In my spiel, I sort of spoke from my own personal experience when I was studying violin. The first violin I played was Uncle Herman's violin.
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: It had been rattling around in the family and no one was using it. I decided to switch from piano to violin, and let's see if we can get Uncle Herman's violin. At a certain point, I outgrew Uncle Herman's violin and I needed a better instrument. That's where the Dayton Philharmonic was around the year 2000, when we had definitely outgrown Memorial Hall and it was time for a better instrument. The Hall is really the instrument that the orchestra as a group plays, and once we had a hall which was both beautiful to play in, but had a... The thing about the acoustics, not only that it sounds good to the audience, but the orchestra sitting on stage has a feeling that they sound good.
That enables the players to in a way relax compared to the way they were overworking in Memorial Hall. They could ease up and they could take more risks, not consciously, but they had the confidence to just play differently because they knew they would sound good. It really helped us sort of take off in the way that people like their investments to take off.
Shaun Nicholson: That's right, yes. Neal, is there a particular concert or a collaboration or moment on stage over the years that maybe especially was meaningful to you or stands out over that time?
Neal Gittleman: There were many-
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... believe me-
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... many. I would have to say one, and we can talk about collaborations later because that's a whole separate fun category, but one that really stands out because it was very important to me myself. When I was a freshman at Yale, we did the second production ever of Leonard Bernstein's Mass.
Shaun Nicholson: Aah.
Neal Gittleman: The first production had been at the Kennedy Center, and then at the same production played at the May Festival in Cincinnati, with a great deal of controversy, the following spring. We were the second production, so the first new production of the piece, and we did it during the second half of my freshman year, and then came back together after the end of the school year in June to sort of re-rehearse it. Then, we went to Vienna and did the European-
Shaun Nicholson: Nice.
Neal Gittleman: ... premiere of the piece. It was just one of those really formative experiences, just sort of being part of something, which was a great piece of music, but also much bigger than yourself. It was just so exciting. I always wanted to do my own production of Mass, and we got to do that here in collaboration with Wright State University.
It was very rewarding because, A, it's a piece I dearly loved, and from the very beginning I wanted to conduct because by that time I already knew I'd wanted to be. It was only months after I first expressed interest in conducting, but it's what I wanted to do, and I had the record and I would conduct along. The really cool thing was that I was able by leading this production to sort of recreate for a whole other generation of young people at Wright State the same experience that I had-
Shaun Nicholson: Oh, that's nice.
Neal Gittleman: ... being the singers and dancers and actors. The players were the orchestra, but I was able to sort of pass the magic of Bernstein's Mass onto another generation of musicians, and I hope maybe one of them will-
Shaun Nicholson: Yes.
Neal Gittleman: ... do their own production.
Shaun Nicholson: Yeah. Oh, that's a great story. I love that.
Neal Gittleman: It was a very special experience, but every single concert that we did at the Philharmonic was a special experience-
Shaun Nicholson: Yes.
Neal Gittleman: ... each in its own way.
Shaun Nicholson: Yes, yes. Well, you've been known for your adventurous programming, introducing contemporary composers, blending generos, creating a thematic concerts. What inspires you to take those creative risks?
Neal Gittleman: Well, you know, I think every orchestra should have a well-balanced diet of music. You need the classics because that's the bread and butter of the orchestra, so you always want to be coming back to Beethoven and Brahms and Mozart and Tchaikovsky because that's where you really sort of learn the craft-
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... of how you play together. Also, being involved in unusual music, unusual collaborations. Those are some of the things that really stand out. For instance, once we did a collaboration with a human race theater company, Dayton's-
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... Dayton's Repertory Theater Company in effect, of an incredible piece of music by the playwright Tom Stoppard and the composer Andre Previn called Every Good Boy Deserves Favor. It's a play with orchestra, so there are actors and an orchestra on stage in this crazy hour-and-15-minute-long piece. We did a production of that, which was just so exciting.
Shaun Nicholson: Yeah.
Neal Gittleman: We did several collaborations with DCDC, the Dayton Contemporary Dance Company over the years. We did a concert on our Rockin' Orchestra Series built on Dayton Funk Music-
Shaun Nicholson: Right, right.
Neal Gittleman: ... of the Dayton Funk All-Stars and some of the actual performers from the Dayton Funk era. We were very sort of adventurous in trying all kinds of things, and that was very rewarding and a lot of fun. One week you're playing Beethoven, and the next week you're doing funk music-
Shaun Nicholson: That's fun.
Neal Gittleman: ... and it's great. Some people might think that doing things like that is risk because you're not paying Beethoven and-
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... Brahms. I suppose it is a risk when you have a limited number of concerts because we're not like the Cleveland Orchestra playing a program every single week.
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: When you're playing that much, you can try all kinds of things and you're still giving people who like the old chestnuts, they have plenty of chestnuts to enjoy.
Shaun Nicholson: Right.
Neal Gittleman: I just thought... I think those kind of things, especially in a smaller city, you have to find ways to appeal to a broader audience. Classical music, for better or for worse, has maybe 3 or 4 or 5% at most of a community who are into it. If you're in a major metropolitan area, that's fine. You can play all the classical music you want. You don't have to try anything else, but in a smaller city, you have to find I used to say many different doors, like the 12 gates of the city.
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: There's any number of ways that the orchestra can influence the audience and have an impact, and that could be classical music, it could be country music, it could be funk music, it could be rock and roll, it could be Broadway, anything. The more opportunities you give to people to hear the orchestra the better.
Shaun Nicholson: Well, and I'm certain that the orchestra members themselves enjoy the variety, too, and-
Neal Gittleman: Well, they do. I mean, some of them enjoy the variety, but they are in some ways even more conservative than the most conservative listeners.
Shaun Nicholson: Oh, okay.
Neal Gittleman: They would be perfectly happy just to play Brahms and Beethoven every single week-
Shaun Nicholson: I see. Okay.
Neal Gittleman: ... and sometimes they need to be pushed as well.
Shaun Nicholson: Got it. Okay. Well, I know I've certainly enjoyed the variety.
Neal Gittleman: The other thing I would say is from a cultural standpoint, one of the most important things that happened during the three decades that I was here was creating the Dayton Performing Arts Alliance, when we combined the orchestra and Dayton Ballet and Dayton Opera into a single organization. When that happened almost 15 years ago, we were the very first to do that in the United States. and we're still the only one.
Shaun Nicholson: Is that right?
Neal Gittleman: There are cities that have two of the art forms combined, but we so far as I know, are the only one which has ballet, opera, and orchestra all together. That was, I think, a wonderful thing to do.
Shaun Nicholson: Well, it was a risk at the time.
Neal Gittleman: It was definitely a risk. We didn't really know how it was... We had an idea, but we didn't know for sure until we tried it. It worked very, very well in terms of the artistic collaborations. Honestly, I think if we hadn't combined with the pressures of COVID and all of that, I don't know if any one of those organizations could have survived on its own. It was a very difficult-
Shaun Nicholson: True that.
Neal Gittleman: ... period.
Shaun Nicholson: Right, yes.
Neal Gittleman: We were definitely stronger together by being combined.
Shaun Nicholson: Mm-hmm. Yes, I agree. That was a brilliant move. Well, I know that the Dayton Philharmonic has become a cultural cornerstone in the region. How do you see the orchestra's role in the broader community, especially in terms of accessibility and education?
Neal Gittleman: Well, I think an orchestra in a community is just a valuable cultural resource in the sense that having the ability to have a venue where people can come together and hear live music performed for them is a very special thing. Another thing that we learned during the pandemic, because we were actually pretty far out there in terms of doing streaming and streaming performances for our audience to stay connected with them during the pandemic shutdown period. As soon as we started to be able to play for live audiences again, even though they were very severely limited with all the distancing regulations, it made so much difference. I think we all sensed that the audience made a big difference to us, but playing in an empty room for cameras and microphones, even if there's like a hundred people in the audience, it suddenly has a different-
Shaun Nicholson: Yes.
Neal Gittleman: ... dynamic to it.
Shaun Nicholson: Yes.
Neal Gittleman: I think we all learned then how that collective experience of performers and an audience together, sharing art together in a live way, just how important that is.
Shaun Nicholson: Yes, you're right. You're right. Well, I know you've worked extensively with young musicians and students. What's your philosophy on music education and why it's so important to the future of classical music?
Neal Gittleman: My mother was a public school teacher. My father was an English professor. Education is kind of in my cultural DNA, you might say. I've always understood how important education is for everything, not just music education, but in terms of the art forms that we have under the Dayton Performing Arts Alliance, orchestral music and ballet and opera, the educational aspect of it I think is so important because early exposure to anything is a good indicator of interest later on in life. Someone who plays baseball as a kid is more likely to be a baseball fan buying tickets-
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... or getting a subscription to MLB TV when they grow up, so someone, a kid who grows up dancing in the Dayton Ballet School, even if they never go on to be a professional dancer, will gain all kinds of things from that performing experience as well as being a future patron when they're old enough and have disposable income.
The educational function of an arts organization like the orchestra or the Performing Arts Alliance is both, I think, well, it is on the one hand altruistic because you're doing it for the the community. It's also selfish in a virtuous way-
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... because it's in your own self-interest to expose your audience and to excite your audience. One of the things that's been nice about the last few weeks and months of my time with the orchestra is getting to talk and getting messages from people thanking me for all the years of music. People come up and say, "I first saw you when I was in fourth grade and now I'm coming and now I'm subscriber." It's like, "Yes, that's what-
Shaun Nicholson: [inaudible 00:20:35].
Neal Gittleman: ... it's all about. Exactly, so it's very rewarding to know that we've done that work, and I hope we'll continue to do it.
Shaun Nicholson: Of course. Well, conducting isn't just about music, it's about leadership, communication, and vision. How would you describe your leadership stype, both on and off the podium?
Neal Gittleman: Well, that's a little hard to say when you're talking about yourself. Part of my training at the Monteux School especially with my teacher, Charles Bruck, he believed very firmly, as did his teacher, Pierre Monteux, the great French conductor, that every conductor must play in the orchestra. Even if you can't play very well-
Shaun Nicholson: All right.
Neal Gittleman: ... you've got to sit in the orchestra-
Shaun Nicholson: All right.
Neal Gittleman: ... and have that experience. I have always thought about the conductor's job from the standpoint of a player, and I used to talk to kindergarten classes about what a conductor's job is. I would tell them the conductor's job is to help the orchestra play the music the best they can-
Shaun Nicholson: Nice.
Neal Gittleman: ... and that's it. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're talking to a kindergarten or if you're talking to a graduate seminar at the Juilliard School of Music, that is the conductor's job, help the musicians play. That's it because they make the music. You don't make any sound without the orchestra. I also used to say that to the kindergartners because I would start my presentation just by conducting.
Shaun Nicholson: Nice.
Neal Gittleman: No music, no nothing, and after about 15 seconds, they would start laughing. I said, "Right," because a conductor without an orchestra is just like a crazy person waving their arms in the air.
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: Then, I told them what I was conducting and listening to myself was Jingle Bells-
Shaun Nicholson: Aah.
Neal Gittleman: ... and we would immediately sing Jingle Bells together while I conducted, and they would suddenly-
Shaun Nicholson: That's nice.
Neal Gittleman: ... see that what I was doing actually meant something.
Shaun Nicholson: Yes.
Neal Gittleman: That's really it. I mean, that's the training I had, and that's who I have always been as a conductor. Different conductors have different attitudes. I'm not sure if that was always Leonard-
Shaun Nicholson: Well-
Neal Gittleman: ... Bernstein's MO, but that was my MO.
Shaun Nicholson: What would you hope your legacy will be, not just in Dayton, but in the broader world of music and arts?
Neal Gittleman: Hmm. I don't know. I would hope my legacy is the orchestra. I'm not leaving Dayton, even though I've retired from the orchestra. I've told people I'm just moving from the podium to a seat somewhere in the back of the auditorium where I'm not making a scene. To the extent that I can sit out there and hear the orchestra play and hear them play for the ballet and hear the opera and think, "Gee, that sounds good," I mean, that will be for me my legacy, that the-
Shaun Nicholson: Nice.
Neal Gittleman: ... orchestra is still here and still sounding good.
Shaun Nicholson: Well, looking back, what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned about music and about people, and even about yourself over those years?
Neal Gittleman: Hmm, the biggest lesson I think is, well, a couple of things. One, there are conductors and there are people in the audience who think that the conductor's job is about control and being the boss and telling people what to do. You learn over the years, especially if you're conducting the same ensemble for a long time like I did, you learn hopefully very quickly that that's not what it's about. It's about getting people to work together for a greater purpose.
Yes, I mean, having all the technical skills that you need as a conductor, a clear beat and a reasonably open ear and knowing your score, knowing the music, all of that sort of thing, those are all important, but the biggest thing is how you work with the players and how you get them to play at their best, and to always remember they're not an orchestra. They're 75 or 80 or sometimes 90 or a hundred individual musicians, all of whom have their own ideas about how the music should go. Your job is to get them all rowing in the same direction and feeling like not that you're imposing your sense of the music on them, but collectively we are coming to an agreement about how the music goes this week.
Shaun Nicholson: That's a great description.
Neal Gittleman: Maybe the next time we do the same music we'll do it differently, but this is how we're doing it this time, and let's make the best of it.
Shaun Nicholson: I like that. That's a great way to look at it. After such a long and impactful career with the Dayton Philharmonic, how does it feel step away from the podium? What emotions have come with retirement?
Neal Gittleman: It's interesting. People ask me this question and they expect that it's going to be a very emotional kind of thing for me. What's perhaps different about my retirement from other people's retirement or stepping away from a big, rewarding, challenging job like being a conductor is that I planned this and planned it four or five years ago that it was going to be as my wife and I called it a long exit ramp. There are conductors who get forced into retirement, and I could imagine that's not much fun, but I basically was able to sort of make it work the way I wanted it to work. I have not yet had any, "Oh, no, what did I do?" My wife asked me, "Are you sure you did the right?" Yes, I made the right decision. I made the decision. I stuck with it, and I'm excited about whatever happens next.
Shaun Nicholson: Well, I know retirement often opens the doors to new opportunities. Are there any personal or artistic pursuits you're to explore and now that you have more time?
Neal Gittleman: Well, I hope over time my golf game might get a little bit better.
Shaun Nicholson: Of course.
Neal Gittleman: You're also getting older, so your ability, you know.
Shaun Nicholson: I know.
Neal Gittleman: I also have some musical, I mean, I'm not entirely giving up on being a conductor, but I'm giving up on it being my full-time job. I actually do have a concert again with the Philharmonic in October, a concert program, which the orchestra is calling it I think it's By Friends For Friends is the title-
Shaun Nicholson: Okay, nice.
Neal Gittleman: ... but I really think of it as the "Wait a minute, I thought you were gone" concert, and if people are like, "Wait, oh okay." That would be great.
Shaun Nicholson: All right. I look forward to it.
Neal Gittleman: There's also, it's not set yet, so I won't be specific about it, but there's also a ballet company that's been sniffing around about the possibility of me conducting Nutcracker for them this-
Shaun Nicholson: Nice.
Neal Gittleman: ... December, and that would be great-
Shaun Nicholson: Sure.
Neal Gittleman: ... go to off to another city and I wouldn't have to miss seeing Dayton Ballet's Nutcracker from the stage, from the audience. That would be fun, and so if interesting projects come along, I will be very happy to be involved in them.
Shaun Nicholson: Yeah, yeah, so what advice would you give to the next generation of conductors and arts leaders who are kind of stepping into the roles like the one you've held?
Neal Gittleman: I would say dedicate yourself to where you are. There are a lot of conductors who divide their time between two, three, four, or five cities. I chose to invest all my time, 90% of my time at least, in one city. I did that because I believed that's how it should be, and it was very rewarding for me. Coming back to Leonard Bernstein, in his opera Candide, the very last song, the big chorus that ends the opera is called Make Your Garden Grow. It's about don't run all over the world looking for adventure. Stay home, tend your garden, watch it grow, and kind of that's what I did here in Dayton, and it was for me extremely rewarding. The beautiful thing is that by sticking around, I can see how the garden continues to grow after I stopped weeding it.
Shaun Nicholson: Neal, thank you for sharing your story, your insights, and your passion with us today. Your work has truly left a lasting mark on Dayton and beyond, and we're so grateful for everything you've done and continue to do for the arts. To our listeners, thank you for joining us. Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations on the Next Gen Podcast. Until next time, take care and keep listening.
Disclaimer: Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Next Gen podcast. To learn more about our team and to join our exclusive educational events throughout the year, check out our website at advisors.ubs.com/intergen. If you have any suggestions on episodes you'd like to hear, let us know by emailing us at energen@ubs.com. If you liked this episode, be sure to follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify to hear more.
This podcast is presented for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as investment advice or the basis for making any investment decisions. It does not constitute an offer to sell or solicitation of any offer to buy any specific product or service. UBS does not provide legal or tax advice, and we recommend listeners to obtain appropriate and independent professional advice. Some of the views and opinions expressed may not be those of UBS Group AG or its affiliates.
UBS Financial Services Inc. offers investment advisory services in its capacity as an SEC-registered investment advisor and brokerage services in its capacity as an SEC-registered broker-dealer. These services are separate and distinct, different in material ways, and are governed by different laws and separate arrangements. It is important that you understand the ways in which we conduct our business, and that you carefully read agreements and disclosures that we provide about the products and services we offer. For more information, please review client relationship summary provided at ubs.com/relationshipssummary. UBS Financial Services Inc. is a subsidiary of UBS Group AG and is a member of FINRA and SIPC.