Welcome to the F3 Female Forward Finance.
I'm your host, Jill Farraday Lloyd, a financial advisor at
UBS Private Wealth, and I'm on a mission to help
women have agency with their capital.
The F3 is the space for real conversations about money,
power, and everything in between.
You'll hear from experts, entrepreneurs and everyday James about the
choices they're making when it comes to their wealth.
These are critical conversations because women are earning, building and
shaping what comes next in the world and it's time
we own every bit of our power.
Welcome back to the F3.
In this episode, we'll explore the journey of Gwen Whiting,
the Co founder of The Laundress and founder of the
film, as she shares the unfiltered truth about life before,
during and after a major exit.
Learn how she protected her equity and legacy and discover
why bootstrapping was the key to her success.
In this episode, you'll gain insights on how knowing your
number before you sell can lead to 1,000,000 more in
your pocket.
Let's dive in.
Today, I'm thrilled to have Gwen Whiting as my guest.
We're going to talk about how to protect yourself and
your interests.
As a founder, Gwen is perhaps best known for founding
her category creating premium eco friendly laundry and home cleaning
brand, The Laundress.
Over the course of 17 years, she led the growth
of her bootstrapped company to become a household name and
through its global expansion and eventual reported 9 digit acquisition
by Unilever in 2019.
In June of 24, with a renewed mission and a
sense of purpose, Gwen launched The Fill, a collection of
Wellness forward aromatherapy infused laundry, home cleaning and fabric care
solutions sold exclusively to members of the brand's private cleaning
club.
I'm excited to have Gwen here to share insights from
her 20 plus year as an entrepreneur, advisor, and confidant.
Her insights are shaped by what she learned, hears, and
knows, revealing truths that often go unspoken.
Let's begin.
Welcome, Gwen.
Hi, Jill.
How you doing?
I'm good.
I'm so happy to be here.
Happy.
You're here too.
It's such a joy to talk with friends.
I know, I know, and in person it's a rare
podcast opportunity.
Thank you.
I would love to work backwards from where we are
today.
And congratulations on on your successful exit.
It's, it's not every day that somebody survives and makes
it to the other end and actually starts a new
gig.
So are you enjoying life today?
That's a complicated question.
It is the storybook ending.
It's the the the storybook that everyone inspires for hopes
for and few people get.
So that is exciting, but it's not all rosy or
isn't what it seems to to cross the finish line
and then figure out what's next.
I sold.
I had a five year non compete.
I had a contract to stay on with the company
for two years.
So that kind of kept me kind of cruising and
and operating normal business mode.
And then the the the end and the end corresponded
in with COVID.
So every while everyone's life was upended as well.
The hardest part for me was sitting in nothing and
creating space from me as the laundress and my past
life and 20 years of that life, to holding space
for nothing in order to make a transition to the
future.
To your what's?
Next to what's next?
Yeah, I remember spending time with you when you were
ideating on what could be your What's next?
And it's, it was so painful.
It's like, you know, when someone dies or divorced or
what not, they say don't make any rash decisions.
And so just sitting there and not making with the
world, with the world still, right, right.
Creating that space which had to happen.
But you know, kind of being disciplined to say no.
I gave a lot of my time away in mentoring.
But you you're trying to fulfill this or for me,
I have a very strong creative energy.
I have a social energy.
I was used to high pace building, creating and working
with my teams.
And that was the fun energy that that I enjoyed
and I missed and I had a hole for.
Yeah.
So one of the things I talked often with founders
about is, you know, three legs of the stool.
You want to maximize the saleable value of your business.
You want to maximize your personal financial wealth.
And you want to think about your what's next on
the other end.
So here you are in COVID and you've got this
great big hole and you decide to fill it.
Pardon.
Well, let's go.
I I filled it and not how I would have
liked to.
Unfortunately, I watched my acquire Unilever with the beautiful, you
know, I sold them an incredibly pristine business, very profitable.
And there was a, a real path for the future,
for growth and what was going to happen to the
brand under their leadership, which is why I sold to
them because I thought they had the wherewithal to take
the brand to the next level, which was, you know,
empowering and making more people around the world happy with
what I made.
And they ignored the plan and just completely arrogantly and
irresponsibly trashed my company.
So it was a very public trashing of the company
and I ended up exercising my non compete when it
expired five years later.
And.
Created and created the fill.
So the fill was fulfilling the, the promise and what
I of helping people for all those years.
You know, I was unwilling to leave this entire customer
base that I, that I fulfilled, that I created solutions
for you.
Created.
Yeah.
And people relied on on what I made for all
those years.
A little bit further than like losing your favorite lipstick
color.
You know, it's like trusting your, you know, what you
clean your house and your clothing with.
So that's why I stepped back into the laundry room
to get back into business.
But it was also fulfilling my legacy.
You know, it was very difficult to spend my 20
years of my life completely dedicated to something and then
have that disappear.
So there's a 2 fold in that aspect.
There's a lot of laundry fold.
Yeah, there's a, there's no shortage of of laundry pundage.
I know that it was a incredible ride to build
the Laundress and to ultimately sell her.
If you're OK, I'd love to talk a little bit
about the messy middle of running the laundress because while
it was your life's passion, there were, from what you've
shared with me, a lot of challenges that weren't just
at the exit but occurred during the life.
Of course.
And you know, for our listeners who are growing their
businesses, I'd really love you to be sort of the
person who says what I wish I knew, but nobody
told me.
Where would you want to begin with that?
Where to start so the laundress was my baby.
I birthed her in 22,000 two I launched her in
2004 and I nurtured her throughout the whole time.
I brought in a friend from college as a business
partner and naively, I just assigned a 5050 partnership as
so mean that we shared the same values and work
ethic and passion and desire and drive to build this
together.
That was it.
That's just what I believed and that was, you know,
that comes with consequences.
It's a very serious decision to have a partner.
There's so many, a lot of people ask me about
partnership and doing alone and and all the different ways
and it's there's pros and cons.
It's really tough.
You are in a marriage with no divorce.
It is easier to get divorced in the state of
New York or any other state in or any other
country because there's rules and protocol and process that doesn't
exist in a business partnership.
You can write of shareholder agreement just like you can
write a post up or whatever, but they're incredibly hard
to enforce.
And if you do, it's expensive.
So that's just the reality.
And so very early on, I listened to, I went
to a very early female founder event.
This is like around 2006, like it was unheard of
as the first women who were talking about this and
their platform was called, It's not even a platform.
But in 2006, it was like, I don't know, there
was a conference and a book, maybe a website, unclear.
And they were called Ladies Who Launch.
And I went to this seminar with my partner and
Kathleen King spoke and Kathleen had just lost Kathleen's Bakery
and she lost her name, she lost her bakery, she
lost her company to a quote partner that she brought
in.
She had a quarter $1,000,000 in debt and had her
house on the market to, to live.
And she told that story.
And I sat in the audience and from that day
on, I realized my for my entire rest of my
laundress career, all I had to do was defend my
50% Kathleen, half my baby.
That's all I had.
That's what I that was my nest egg.
That was, I put everything into it.
That was my, my, you know, my ride or die.
Like I left my job that I loved because I
believed I had better earning potential on my own than
I did at Ralph Lauren at a great company.
I love my job.
I love my coworkers.
I love my boss.
But the earning potential structure was a structure, you know,
the sort of Ralph Lauren way.
I either had to marry myself off, probably to a
banker, you know, or, you know, subscribe to being stuck
in that structure.
So I went for it.
You bet on yourself.
I bet on myself.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So let's talk a little bit about this partnership.
We'll we'll give the happy ending to Kathleen.
She then started Tate's cookies and had a wonderful 2nd
chapter but with a different mission and a very clearview
on what she needed to do to protect herself.
And I love Tate's gluten free chocolate chip.
Cookies.
Exactly.
So the 5050 structure, was there any way that you
you were clearly doing most of the work?
I was carrying a big load and I and from
the beginning and to to the end.
So what I realized very quickly in my defense of
my 50 was I basically, after having some investor meetings
and private equity and blah, blah, blah, realizing if I
let anyone in the door and giving up any percentage
of mine that I would be susceptible to being thrown
under the bus period, end of story.
And there were very early examples of that.
There were other founders who with this, this woman who
started 8 and an A, this baby swaddles.
She actually loved her investors so much.
We met with them and then within the year she
was fired from her own company.
There's another Serena and Lily, another example where two partners
took in money and one partner got thrown out and
the other Part 1 stayed.
So this is a reoccurring business model and I knew
that I would be the one that would get thrown
under.
I knew it.
So the moral of the story is I couldn't let
anyone in my house.
And what about hiring an attorney to restructure the business?
You're just paying to fight.
And I knew that it would be like the death
of the company.
So it was like Grand Barrett and like, hang on.
What are some of the tricks that you said to
yourself to get through those really dark moments of I
just have to protect myself, I just have to what?
What were some of the things you did specifically to
protect yourself during those years?
I mean, it was a long journey.
Like obviously antidepressants, it was impossible.
It was grueling.
I say I'm a masochist.
I was a child gymnast.
I grew up in a leotard, so I was used
to humiliation and pain.
It.
It's funny, but it's true.
So to be able to put yourself through that much
long term grind, grit and pain, I was a bit
prepped for it as a child, but I but I
just had my I and I wasn't counting the days
to an acquisition.
I really wasn't.
I loved fundamentally what I did.
I loved the doing, I loved the creating.
I loved the reward of customer feedback and hearing from
someone that they got to stain out or how much
they love something or, you know, just the pure joy
and enthusiasm for what I was doing for people.
That was like my everyday joy so.
That's what got you out of bed in the morning
in.
Spite of that.
So we are working backwards here.
We went from the sale to the messy middle.
Let's talk about fundraising.
Right?
You bootstrap the laundress.
What advice would you give founders about raising outside capital,
besides the risk that you talked about with private equity
and perhaps losing your role?
Yeah, I mean, The funny thing is, is I didn't
raise partially because I felt insecure that I didn't know
how or what or the finances behind the like.
Every time you ask them what about a deal?
Oh, it depends, you know.
There was no clear answers.
There's no structure.
There's no structure, you know, everything's different, whatever, whatever.
And, you know, and I also felt that when I
did take a few of those meetings and it's like,
oh, we'll make you the 10X and you'll get this
and all this fairy tale and pipe dream and nonsense.
I knew that like the, I knew my business better
than anyone else.
And I knew what it would take to get to
certain benchmarks, which necessarily weren't 10X.
And how is this guy who never did a load
of laundry like going to do that for me?
You know, And it was like this, oh, we do
this, we do that, you know, nonsense.
And I was like, really, I'd love to see how,
how exactly does that happen?
And so it's just so you.
So you didn't know the numbers?
You I knew I knew my numbers, but the iron
Angel is that I never did this.
I didn't even know what a cap table was until
after I sold the company.
I was talking to a founder and she's telling me
about our cap table and I was like, oh, what's
that?
But I'd never, I never went through the race.
So I, I felt more, I felt safer raising myself
again.
It was what I can do for myself.
And I started the company with ASBA loan $100,000.
I filled out all the papers.
I went to the SBA office.
I worked with an advisor for a year.
Like I put the work in.
This isn't like I had a 30 page business plan
today.
The kids these days, you know, it's like a two
page slide and go ask for money.
Like that's not how you build a responsible business.
Like completely thought out.
I followed that business plan to AT and it was
a complete masterpiece.
I had my entire road map in front of me
and all I did year over year was fill in
the numbers for everything that happened that year and then
the the next on the list that I accomplished in
the next edition and followed that map.
But aside from the SBA, which $100,000 goes very quickly,
especially in an inventory based business, then I got envelopes
in the mail every every day or every week from
a credit card company.
And in 2004, if you filled them out, they actually
sent you a credit card with a line of credit
on it.
And that happened until 2008, which shocking, there was a
financial crisis because every credit card kept giving credit to
an idiot like me who filled out the paperwork and
rolling over and 0% APR.
And I had every credit card you could imagine to
free monogramming at LL Bean.
But that's how I financed and after 2008, I had
a profitable company.
I mean, it had to be profitable early on, like
at least making ends meet and the responsible building company
that they were able to get a bank line and
loan.
And that is how I was able to have access
to money and not lose my 50% and not let
anyone in the door who was going to make decisions
on my behalf because a Chase Bank loan officer.
Isn't doing that to you?
Yeah, 'cause raising money devalues your own stake.
Devalues your stake and it lets someone in the door
who has an has an opinion right?
And then it then it creates a structure that's not
one against one.
It can easily be two against one.
Let let's stay on this topic for a little while.
I loved when we had dinner the other night you
were telling me about the lady in Westchester.
I've talked to a lot.
Of ladies I.
Think I I'm sort of joking when I say become
a bit of a exit doula or lady, a female
business owner doula.
I have had a lot of conversation, conversations with other
women, some who all exited, raised too much money, raised
money that they were told was in the norm and
it's all Oh yeah, this is totally standard in the
normal range and completely over raised which devalued their share
and their exit and their take take away from their
hard earned work and dedication of their life.
10 say 10 years of your life dedicated to a
result that you can't live off of.
I'm not saying that it has to be a certain
amount of money, but I think the whole point of
putting yourself through this experience is to at least walk
out the end with agency over your choice and the
ability to choose how you want to spend your time.
That's it.
If we go back to those three legs of the
stool, it's maximizing your financial position, right?
And so understanding what your number is, right?
And if you know that your exit amount is going
to be a certain amount that can't carry you or
you can't live off of, then you should be well
aware that you need to position yourself for the next
employment, for the next job or the next paycheck of
sorts.
But to go through this expecting 1 outcome and having
a different 1 is what I'm seeing a lot of
credible disappointment and surprise, frankly, that that is what happened.
So the, so the person I was telling you about
in Westchester, I, I actually knew, knew these founders since
they're very inception point as I was a reference and
I know the business.
I have a basic understanding of, of the size and
scale and potential.
And I think they would be incredibly lucky to have
the deal that I got.
I don't expect that actually to happen, but I walked
her through the numbers of if you had my deal,
this is what it would mean to you and she
doesn't have the 50%.
And I walked through the numbers and I was like,
and this is what you're lucky if you clear this
at the end of the day and you've got 2
little kids and like private school and college ahead of
you and like that isn't going to part.
Of your breath.
That's not going to carry you.
And it was a real reality check for her.
And I'm clearly not a math genius.
I'm just laying out the, the facts and the reality
because I think you're, I think it's like birthing a
child where you like, forget all the terrible parts, like
on purpose, your body's wired for that.
And so you're in this drive of like go, go,
go, but you kind of are wired to like not
really, really comprehend the reality.
Yeah, you're just doing you're.
Just as opposed to.
Planning and executing on a on a goal.
Yeah.
And it's like, I want that deal or I want
that outcome or I want, but it's like, but yeah.
And is that truly realistic?
Right, so I use very easy math if you're not
a math genius, but you are a founder and you're.
Like no other.
And you?
Know that you own X percent of the company and
if you sell it this price, I usually talk to
women and say OK, let's say you net $10 million
and you invest that $10 million to live off of
and you get a 6% return and you pay 1%
of fees and 1% in Texas, that's 4%.
Can you live on $400,000?
Right.
Well, that could bring us to the point which is
having a small business and a sustain business.
And are you better off running that company, loving what
you do, being profitable, making money.
And I'm sure your salary is more than 400,000 a
year, right?
So that's where you go into the math, right?
It's like because if that's your end game number, what's
your current number and what looks more attractive?
So, and that's where where I am now is in
my second mountain journey.
I'm I obviously had the 1st mountain.
I am grateful and lucky that I had the win.
But the reality of the winners is the, the reality
of having a business that's profitable, you're paid well and
you love it and what you're earning capacity.
And if you're making that money and investing it, you
know, year over year and you're building your asset for
a bigger nest egg and for a bigger number when
you're, you know, when that time comes, at the end
of the day, you're better off.
But if you sign up for for money early on,
you don't have the luxury of that path.
Correct.
You've already signed up that you've a short window, you
Sprint, you gave up, and you better get a bigger
number at the end because you already know that you've
given your work away.
Yeah.
We have a program at UBS called Project Female Founder
and it's an accelerator program for female founders who are
raising Series A capital.
And the whole gist of it is around learning how,
knowing how to raise aligned capital and not just capital
at all costs, like capital that makes sense to you.
And that could be grant funding and that could be
revenue.
Revenue is your best source of funding because you're not
giving anything away.
So I I really.
Or go as far as you can until you take
that money because then you're then you're giving less away
and you really know what you're going to spend it
on.
And it's like you're very you're a lot more calculated
and you understand really what that money will take you
and what is worth spending on because you've already had
started off and you make you know, you're deliberately making
choices of what is my best return.
And then you're have a much clearer idea if you
do take that align capital later.
On and a smaller.
Amount.
Smaller amount, you know exactly what you're going to put
to work for.
Hopefully you can actualize that return.
I got to giggle out of what you call a
cereal on.
Now, I don't think you're in that camp, but let's
talk about what the joke.
Yes, I am certainly not in that camp.
I am not looking to build another giant CPG brand.
I'm actually my business model is almost like try and
not make as much any money I guess doing it
through a private members club.
But I have in all these conversations and and watching
what's going on.
My definition for a serial entrepreneur, and this isn't 100%,
but I'd say it's a majority, is that it's the
founder who exited who needs a paycheck and they're looking
for their next deal and their next.
And it happens right away.
And it's when you're hot and when you still have
your, you know, people knocking on your door and the
maybe previous investors and you got to put together another
revolutionary brand.
Or you know that you're reinventing something as your next
gig and you're raising money because you need another paycheck.
So it's cereal because you need.
It's a job.
You need a job.
And you know, they, a lot of these people have
the really sexy headlines, but they raised so much money
and you can do the math.
I mean, now it's kind of fun.
There are these people on Instagram who are doing really
great calculations of the reality.
It's, it's fun to see actually people breaking down the
math publicly for people to really understand well, that's.
The role that somebody like a financial advisor plays, Sure,
right.
So we can help.
Yeah.
Hopefully you have that in your team ahead of time.
Exactly, Exactly.
Yeah.
It's like when an offer does come across the table,
how to structure that, How much cash, how much carry,
how much you know you're going to roll, how many
years do you have to stick around and modeling out
all those different options.
But also helping a founder understand truly how they can
achieve the goals that they've set for themselves and maybe
they need to stay in the game and.
Other exactly.
And you're better off doing that and, you know, earning
your, your salary and, and doing wise things with that.
I work with a lot of VCs who send founders
to me to help them do that very thing.
And anecdotally, what we've found is that the the the
founders who do their personal financial planning prior to signing
an LOI, they actually end up making more money for
themselves and their investors because they know what their number
is and they stay in the game longer so that
they can get there.
That real clarity of mind as to how to achieve
that real exit right where you are not the quote
UN quote serial on for no one that needs a
job.
Well, I've always admired your discipline, bootstrapping your business, not
giving away the house.
What advice do you have for founders looking at the
other side of an exit right?
So I remember you telling me that you didn't plan
to live some ridiculously fancy life.
Let's talk about you, my fellow girl from New Jersey.
Yeah, I think it all goes into this sort of
rainbow and lollipop idea of the headline and the numbers
and then the reality.
And, you know, the, the day the, the press release
goes out, you get 57 emails from every banker in
the US looking for to help you.
I also thought it was interesting that I also got
emails from the private jet companies watching the the the
wires.
But the reality is like what you can afford and
can you sign up for the private jet company I
and where are you going?
But yeah, just I think, you know, my I live
a wonderful life, but I didn't like, you know, upgrade
to a house on the beach.
You know, I kept my original house and you know,
I have the luxury to that affords me to do
what I want and feel comfortable.
But it's like winning the Lotto, like it's finite.
You know, if you're not responsible with what you have,
it can go and it goes quickly.
So there is a further responsibility and discipline and reality
of of what you have and how you manage that.
So what's next for you?
I really understand where I am now and and I
and it's the the 2nd mountain journey where the 1st
mountain was.
I had to get to the top at all expense
and fight and girls like climbing Everest.
But now I walked down it took a while and
found my second mountain.
And what that means to me is really doing what
I want for and it's fun and it's fulfilling.
Which part of that is through the platform of the
fill.
And what I didn't I, I went through, it was
interesting.
I think about this this afternoon before I came here
was I, when I, when I, I started this film
and my, my father said to me in August that
he was out of soap and he was in the
hospital.
And I think he was like deranged when he said
it.
And so I took that as a real sign of
like, why is he telling me he's out of soap?
He's never once asked for soap from me in like
all of these years.
And I had the privilege and honor of going through
a year, effectively a year of his dying journey while
I was deciding to go back into the laundry room,
build the fill and what that meant to me.
And so, so much of that is intertwined and watching
and seeing a legacy and under really understanding through the
closing of his life, how I want to look back
on mine.
So this was very much a thing I needed to
do for my own personal legacy.
It was something I needed to do to feel good
about putting my products out in the universe.
But how I'm doing it and why I'm doing it
is completely different.
Small business.
It's a small as possible.
It's not the things I don't want to do.
I don't want to give money to Meta.
I don't want to deal with Amazon like all of
the things that I had to do on the 1st
mountain, I don't need to do.
I'm not going to do it.
And being imaginative and creative to do other things and
other revenue avenues and and all fun is a great
challenge in their life.
Another life.
Yeah.
So that's, that's the business side.
What I didn't actually calculate getting back into into the
laundry room was that I was going to start getting
the invitations again and opportunities to speak.
And the fields really provided me literally the soapbox to
stand on so I can have these conversations.
And that's what's empowering and exciting to me is being
able to tell the truth and the reality and hopefully
help some people and inspire some people and maybe be
a Kathleen King for someone else who what she was
for me.
And I have a lot to say and I've learned
a lot and I speak to a lot of people.
And I realize that a lot of people feel shamed
in telling their own stories, but I have the ability
to do it privately but publicly and hopefully empower other
people to protect themselves and have better upsides.
Well, thank you for all that you share with the
world, Gwen.
It's just such a inspiration to hear your story, to
know you, and to see what you're doing in the
world.
Thank you, thank you.
Where can folks learn a little bit more about your
work these days?
So my website isgwenlighting.com, my Phil is the philclub.com and
I'm not big on social media but I guess I'm
most active on LinkedIn.
Will you or will you take connections on LinkedIn?
Oh yes, great.
Well, thank you so much, Gwen, for joining me today
and thank you all you listeners.
If you're a female founder looking to educate yourself on
the exit process, please reach out to me at jill.lloyd@ubs.com,
join my mailing list, the F3, and then let's continue
to make change in the world.
Let's help each other.
Best wishes to you all.
Onward.
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we offer.
For more information, please review clientrelationshipsummaryprovided@ubs.com/relationship Summary.
UBS Financial Services Inc is a subsidiary of UBS Group
AG and is a member of FINRA and SIPC.